Okay. Let no one dwell in their tents. This is later applied in Acts 120, but not to a group of people, to an individual, namely Judas. Mary and Joseph are perfectly free to have children. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. As Christians, we should not believe things that contradict the Word of God. In 2015 Christie was named Executive Director of Sports at Mastermind Lounge, LLC. Rather, this is Mary simply being obedient to the law just as Jesus submitted himself to baptism for the sake of all righteousness. Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. Well, right. So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. Professional career [ edit] Early career [ edit] 15. Jackson Memorial Hospital. Some of the ways Trent and I would agree that a dogma contradicts scripture is explicitly, implicitly, or partially. Hebrews 11:5 states, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death. And he was not found because God took him up. So is this your view, Jesus and his siblings have the same mother but they have different fathers? So thats also a bad argument. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. We ought to do it. This is hard, isnt it? And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. . He claims this shows Jesus believed the Old Testament was confined to Genesis (or Abel) and 2 Chronicles (or Zechariah). Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. and so this may not satisfy Trents answer and he might smirk a little bit about that, but Id say probably the first theologian to agree with me is the Apostle Paul. I agree that it is used predominantly of Jesus, talking about salvation from sin, but I would say read the context. The same in any intellectual study. Christie, who grew up in Oakville, Ontario, graduated from The College of William and Mary and made his NFL debut with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1990. And again, what I argued is how adelphi is used consistently in the New Testament Greek, not how its used in a Greek translation of the Old Testament. I have to say, maybe, and Trent brought this up in the debate, when it talks about the brothers and sisters of Jesus and using adelphoi to mean that it always means biological brother. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. It is used this way consistently in the New Testament, as well as in the Septuagint where it is used over a hundred times, such as the Sister Kingdoms of Israel and Judah who worship the same one true God of the Old Testament. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. He had cancer and heart disease. No, I dont think you are following my point. "Bills and Eagles Turn Mountains Into Molehill; Buffalo Erases 35-Point Deficit", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Christie&oldid=1134968114, College of William & Mary Sports Hall of Fame, This page was last edited on 21 January 2023, at 20:11. We see this in Luke 3:1, and if these siblings are Jesuss adoptive siblings from Josephs previous marriage, theres absolutely no contradiction here whatsoever. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. Lets see here. Obviously the Bible does not teach that every woman had sexual relations. . Can it be used in the case without contradicting scripture? In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. But there are many problems with this speculative argument. The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. And they did not want people following them. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. Reply to this thread. You would expect there to be deviations from it. Yes, and I also have a video about Protestant inconsistent use of typology where Protestants have no problem even seeing very rough connections, typologically, to Jesus in the Old Testament, but then apply a much harsher standard when those same typological connections or better ones show Mary in the Old Testament. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. Yeah, no, Steve, if you want to give me the links to those over email, Ill be sure to put them in the description below so people can easily find them. So there was something sinful about Jesus? So I think that is highly significant theres something very, very special about Mary in the way that its used along with the words definition. They have also lived in Garden City Park, NY and Bayside, NY. 23:2), some of whom were not Pharisees. And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. Im really enjoying this. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. And I can honestly say the same thing about Mary especially with the oppression of Rome and the Jews especially after Jesus was born. Would you agree with Jerry [Maditix 01:04:38] that the assumption of Mary was an eyewitness account just as Jesus ascension was? The Story of Reality: Apologist Greg Koukl Discusses His New Book. [inaudible 01:23:43] This comes from supporter, Matt. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. Good day, Steve. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. Okay. What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. Weve got lots of great content that comes out weekly more seriously, and you dont want to miss it, so click subscribe. Morgan Stanley Wealth Management 631-755-8843. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? Thats not true. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. The Buffalo Bills officially signed Christie to a one-day contract, thus to retire as a Buffalo Bill. Jesus does not rebuke her. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. Or Steve could show Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas in regard to every single human being without exception, which would include Mary. I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. He says, this is a question for Steve. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. Okay. Thats all I wanted to say. That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. And so I would say if youre a Protestant, for Protestants and Catholics, if the Marian dogmas can occupy at least that place. I wish that all were as I myself am. Since Mary and Joseph wouldve been the most chaste holy family, this would not apply to them. But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. Okay, Trent. If Mary was conceived sinless and kept the law perfectly, then Christ could not be her savior. I think it provides strong evidence for it. Even if the Pharisees had a canon that matched modern Protestantisms, his argument doesnt work, because it relies on a mistaken assumption about the Pharisees authority. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. GANYARD: It sure is, George. Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. So feel free to answer that briefly. As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. What about after the apostolic age? Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. We see this in Psalm 69:25. In fact, Protestants believe in many doctrines that are not found in scripture like their 66 book cannon of scripture where that public revelation ended in the first century. When the Bible talks about all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, as I mentioned in my opening statement, its a Greek word pas, which means, everyone, which would include Mary. Well, theres Pokemon The First Movie, and it was so bad, there were no other movies. (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. Its a good Greek translation. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. I run morning podcasts here on locals. 17. When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. No one ever says the gift of prophecy or divine revelation had returned after being absent for several centuries. Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. So we have to read the context. Those would be irrelevant to the question. It talks about the universality of sin, like in Romans 3:23, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Paul is talking about the universality of personal sin between Jews and non-Jews. According to Methodist scholar David A. deSilva, New Testament authors weave phrases and recreate lines of arguments from Apocryha books into their new texts. Trent mentioned about dying once. Luke does use monogenes to talk about the death of ones only child, for example, in different parts of his gospel. Stephen Christie has been at the top of the Real Estate Industry for 30 years. And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. This is an example called eisegesis of Scripture. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. Yeah. So lets tie all of this up a little bit. Theres no contradiction there at all. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. After chemotherapy and radiation treatments in Buffalo, he underwent two successful surgeries at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. Catholic answers the firms that while Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin, yet she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam, such as death. This means not only was she conceived sinless, but remained sinless her entire life. And I think thats something that we do find. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". All right. Are you talking about 19 probably later, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, I know not Oh, the ones that have not known a man? Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. But if we just read Scripture and read it fairly and charitably, theres nothing that contradicts, so far, Mary being mother of God, ever Virgin, or being immaculately conceived. We use Christian Apologetics to discuss, interview, & debate for God's existence, & Christianity. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. Im not sure what your question is. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. [W]e do not know the extent of his canon. Sponsored by SaltLending.com and Epic.Tech. They go into the glory of God. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. Isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. Take your time there, Steve, getting yourself ready. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). Scripture reveals Mary was a Virgin, but conflicts with her being a perpetual Virgin. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? So my quick mini rebuttal. His kicking shoe from that game is displayed in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton. He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. Mounce writes, Nicodemus politely says Jesus is a teacher; but when Nicodemus does not understand the necessity of a spiritual rebirth, Jesus questions his status as the teacher, an authoritative rabbi (A Teacher or The Teacher?). Make an Appointment Mary was able to do something that Jesus didnt. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. Okay. Certainly they were baptized Catholics, but they opposed whatever they thought the church taught that contradicted sacred Scripture in a wide variety of doctrines, except they didnt contradict on Mary being the mother of God or her being ever Virgin. Oh, absolutely. Were going to move to Trent now for his 15 minute opening. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. Look, weve got 737 people watching and only 492 likes. The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. So whenever you want to begin, I will click the 10 minute button. And Trent and I would agree that doesnt mean it, in fact, that wasnt even an argument. Tweet: 0 replies, 655 views. So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. This is the number one downloaded Catholic app in the app store, and it is the best app Ive ever used ever. Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. I have also appeared several I already have. Suppose we discovered the actual cross Jesus had been crucified on. And so to say, who believed the exact same way that I believed? Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. Yeah, sounds good. Which church father would you want to preach at your church? Well, why would I believe that Marys parents-. What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death, if he could. Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death reduced to dust. If she was immaculately conceived, wouldnt she have known that she was the version from Isaiah 7:14? . They also allude to events and stories contained in these texts. In Super Bowl XXVIII, Christie set a Super Bowl record by kicking a 54-yard field goal. Yeah. In Luke 3:1 its used to describe Herod Antipas and Herod Philip who had the same father, but they were born of different mothers, just as Jesus and his brethren were born of different mothers. We believe all Christian's should be able to defend their faith in God & Jesus of Nazareth. Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. And also I know others whove done a lot of work on this. He says, Steve. In week 7 vs. the San Diego Chargers, Christie kicked a 29-yard field goal with just :11 seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Yeah. He says this is for, oh, Hey, now you have to give one to Steve. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? He became sin for us. Please try again later. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? 878 talking about this. In the 2000 season, Christie was an instrumental part of the Bills' eight victories. The Greek grammarian Bill Mounce, who writes a whole textbook on Ancient Greek, says that adelphi means, sister, near kinswoman, or female relative. When it comes to [Greek 00:39:49], I already showed that both in the Septuagint and also in contemporary literature, it does not require a reversal of condition, so it can be used here in Matthew 1:25 in this way. 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